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Everyone Loves Daily Kos

by BooMan
Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 10:54:49 PM EST

Okay, here is the place to get it off your chest. If you have a problem with the 'Orange Place' post about it here. Get it out of your system. If you think it has been taken over by some DLC/NDN cabal of corporate interests, if you think that it been stripped of all intelligent life, if you think they are out to get you, if you don't buy into the 'New' Armando, write about it here. Please, get it all out on the table. And if you think the virus is infecting this site, please say so. Get it all out. They hate progressives, they hate dissent, they are all about votes and not principle. Just say it!

And once you've said it, let it go. Help make this site better. Help us live up to your principles. But let's not let this feud go on. I'm tired of this site being the outlet for anti-Kossackian activity. I'm a Kossack. I have my own issues and critiques. This site would not exist if I were not dissatisfied with Daily Kos. But I am about frog stalking, not Kos stalking. So, let's have a bloodletting, and then let's move on.



Display:
Everyone Loves Daily Kos | 179 comments (179 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Let's take on the Right ... (4.00 / 26)
...instead. Enough of the circular firing squad. Kos for what Kos is good for, Booman Tribune for what it is good for. Et cetera.

And most of all, action to go with all our talk.

"We're trying to give the illusion of due diligence." --Bennett Holiday to Jimmy Pope in Syriana

by Meteor Blades (tleelange@hotmail.com) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:07:08 PM EST
I think (4.00 / 15)
back upon Daily Kos when you were the second most prominent writer there, and it is no longer the same place.  And yet, you have refrained from making commentary about the site and the changes it has undergone since you left.  Even though I never front-paged there, I use you as an example.  You brought your wisdom elsewhere but you never repudiated the site or bashed it to promote yourself.

I state my positions, I have my disagreements, but I am not going to make my site into an anti-Kos site.  

You are still the best blogger there is MB.  Hands down.  

by BooMan on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I think (4.00 / 11)
Agreed.  Not to embarass you, MB.  I remember when (pre-Scoop) Kos asked for nominations for new frontpagers, and it seemed like everyone mentioned MB (including me).  Dkos had a community feel back then that is lacking now.

I think the behavior at DKos is an inevitable consequence of its size.  And too many individuals who violate Booman's rule - don't be a prick.

My blog time is reduced these days, and I don't do much but read. I read Billmon (best writer IMO), and Fafblog (most likely to make me smile), DKos (still the best place to scout out the widest variety of breaking news and unearthed stories, due to its sheer size.  Also for Hunter's superb rants).

And BooTrib, because it is the most human.  I don't say much, but I read every day, and I always go away feeling invigorated - even if the discussions are about outrageous or sad events.  Thank you, all of you.  :^)

by OkieByAccident (glimmung2 at yahoo dot com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I think (4.00 / 2)
I agree we should be focusing on the right, not each other, which too often happens.  I want to thank Booman for this site.  I come here and read for a more human perspective.  But sometimes this place can get going.  I go to kos for numbers, but again, sometimes posts can fly off the list quick here too, so the numbers here can't be too bad.  I do not put a daily post here, but I do come and read at least once a day.  Thanks for being here.

A member of The Democratic Wing of The Democratic Party
by Barry Welsh (barry@barrywelsh.org) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:37:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I think (4.00 / 6)
I read DKos every day and have for about a year now. It is a good place to pick stories not found elsewhere, and. at times see what "action items" are hot.

I chose Boo Tribune to be "my blog" for comments (for now) because I appreciated the level of discourse, the wide international flavor, the smaller neighborhood community feeling, and the positive way in which front pagers discuss some very tough topics.

Ad Hominum comments turn me off. My belief is that its okay to disagree with an IDEA or POSITION, and then state your reasons WHY. My definition of a discussion. Attacking lowers the level of discourse and I tend to stop reading, and thus might miss some very valuable information or viewpoints.

I am just out of my 50's. The anger tone and from a lot of what I see I am surmising that a lot of younger people are now involved over the orange place. Its great to see many becoming active and forming a large netroots drive. Passion is good, but I guess I personally am at stage where I need peace and harmony.

As to Kos, or Armando sometimes going over the top - yes, I think they do at times. However both are attorneys. If I ever get into deep doo doo, there are no two than them I would rather have in my corner fighting for me. I bet they would be awesome in a court room battle.

We, as progressives, are a large and diverse group of people. I post comments where I am most comfortable, as I imagine most do. Kos, Armando, Stirling Newbury and others are still on the same side as we here at B/T are. As Boston Joe's "Yellow Feather" campaign showed, we can also work together for common cause.

If we all keep in mind the fact we are basically on the same team, and working for the same or similar goals, then perhaps we can express our disagreements, without the personal attacks.

My nickles worth!


"The most successful politician is he who says what the people are thinking the most often and in the loudest voice." Theodore Roosevelt.

by Grandma M on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From one grammy to another (4.00 / 4)
"If we all keep in mind the fact we are basically on the same team, and working for the same or similar goals, then perhaps we can express our disagreements, without the personal attacks."

Totally agree and do the same thing. Kos is my first stop every morning. Mostly for headlines and info. Seldom ever comment there anymore.

Am glad that young people are interested in politics, but feel that many are just there on the bandwagon of the biggest blog- Because there is a lot of junk diaries and mean commenters who think they are clever, smart and kewl..

Kos is too big now for good participation and I miss many who were there over a year ago.

I never read Armando's or Kos's diaries-just their headlines. Mostly cause I seldom agree or like their point of view. Too narrow for me.

"Time is for careful people, not passionate ones."

by roseeriter (roseeriter@yahoo.com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 04:32:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Family embarassment is a big factor at Kos, (4.00 / 3)
especially from those who want the place to be a kind of public exhibit of a narrow view of sanity -- which often takes the form of "centrism" or "conventional wisdom." Suspicions of any of the deeper forms of covert subversion of democracy get short treatment there.

Here, the comity blends well with a foregone acceptance that darkness breeds corruption.

A distinctly non-McCarthyistic vigilance.

by macdust on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 10:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Circular firing squad indeed (4.00 / 5)
I think individuals on "the Left" care deeply as those on "the Right" about feeling morally right.  The difference is that there is no unifying text or authority to rally around, or "enemy" to confront, on the left.  Thus it tends to fracture and turn on itself because of the lack of unifying theme.  Which is, of course, stupid, because the left has far, far more in common with itself than it does with the right, and always will.

Anyway, the best thing to do if you don't like a site is to stop reading it.  I have, at times, stopped reading Atrios, Kos, and Drum for content reasons.  I've permanently stopped reading TPM and anyone who has been subsumed by Marshall's empire.  I keep trying to drop DeLong since I find him to be a condescending jackass, but he does know a bit about economics so I go back.  And so on.  The great thing about the blogosphere is there are always new sites popping up, and each and every person has the opportunity (if not the time and energy) to create the ultimate lefty website, home to eternal sweetness and light.

So don't complain about Kos, just do your own thing, keeping in mind he is ally no matter how poorly he or other posters phrase things.

[/soapbox]
 

by Tom DC in VA on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 03:52:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Markos never hid his goal (4.00 / 6)
Not from Day One. He wanted to be a political player and professional consultant who would help take the Democratic Party in two parallel directions: to Progressivism and Victory. In the early days when Bush was sitting at 80% that meant changing the narrative, hence 'Buck Fush' and 'Bush Lied, GIs died'. This drew a lot of non-institutional leftists in, dKos was burning white-hot in late 2002 and early 2003, and it with Atrios was the place to be for the anti-war left.

But I remember the day that one of the early fundraisers got Markos a call from Terry McAuliffe, he was proud as punch, he finally was getting some traction within the party, and honestly I was happy for him. Because I too am a Yellow Dog Democrat and however disappointed I am in the direction the DLC dominated leadership has taken it (and I am profoundly disappointed, I am an FDR Democrat) I would never abandon the Party.

It wasn't easy being a dKos regular when 'Doom and Gloomers' roamed the earth demanding either 1) we just take to the streets because Karl Rove is a genius and Diebold has rigged the game so that we will never win or 2) we calm down and get behind the Bush-Lite agenda.

Well Kos and a key core of Kossacks refused to do either. He, and we, targeted key races, showed that you can indeed raise a boatload of money $20 and $50 at a time for the right candidate, and then showed that you can win on a down the line anti-Bush message.

Kos is a Progressive. He has chosen to harness that energy within a framework of winning races and gaining institutional control of the Democratic Party and dragging it back from corporatism to worker centered. And now that we have Bush where we want him, and DLC Democrats have stopped cowering in their Bush-Lite lit cave, the attention has turned to tactics and polls.

Markos, and by extention dailyKos, was never about taking it to the streets, though it is easy to see how some people could project their own inclinations into the rhetoric that was flowing freely. He was and is openly about recapturing the Democratic Party on route to recapaturing the House, Senate and White House. If that makes certain Greens and Socialist Worker types unhappy - well thanks for your help on the Buck Fush front, we left leaning Democrats were glad to have your assistance, but dKos is a big 'D' Democractic Party site. If you don't like that there are innumerable blogs spun off from it where you can participate in ways that allow you to push a more radical course.

Here for example.

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 07:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kos and the DLC (4.00 / 7)
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The one area in which I might disagree involves kos and the DLC.  I say "might" because you're not clear on what you think kos's objections to the DLC are.  Kos, however, has been very clear. His disagreements with the DLC are 100% strategic. He has happily promoted other "New Democrats" who share the DLC's ideology, but not its strategy (Simon Rosenberg being a prime example).

Finally, in what sense have "DLC Democrats...stopped cowering in their Bush-lite cave"?  Most press reports following the Murtha speech suggest that only 70 members of the House Democratic Caucus (or roughly 1/3 of House Democrats) were willing to support Murtha's actual resolution (as opposed to the farce the GOP threw up there, which all but a handful of Dems voted against).  That means that 2/3 of Congressional Dems still support this war.  Leading Democratic presidential contenders like Biden and Clinton are also aggressively pro-war.

On the other hand, I suppose I'd agree that this isn't "cowering." I've never bought the spinelessness meme as a description of Democratic militarism. The Democrats' commitment to the military-industrial complex, and a shoot-first-ask-questions-later foreign policy is deep, despite the party's grassroot's suspicion of these things.  

Become a Card-Carrying Green!

by GreenSooner (greensooner@NOSPAMintergate.com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 09:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting (4.00 / 10)
Before I make some observations about this comment I'm inevitably taken back to the time in politics when there was no internet, no blogs, just the msm.

Remember?  Remember how helpless one felt, the total bystander feeling of participation?  All there was to do was watch, talk to a few people one knew, and vote.  Nothing more.

How our expectations have changed--total strangers to the process with nothing in their hands suddenly think they have a chance or a means to really effect change in just 24-48 months.

As for Markos, I understand he hated consulting, that didn't work out too well.  He thinks he can be a good political author with Jerome; well, I'll read it and see then.  I suspect, but do not know, that Markos is finding out being a player on the inside isn't much fun, and may even be distasteful. Markos likes being, and is very good at, being a political publisher.  If you don't think so, get over yourself.  Look at his numbers and tell me he isn't.

What Does All This Mean?  Not one of us knows, as long as this nightmare feels, we are still very much in the germination of political blogs.  Markos is flying totally blind--in case anyone here hasn't figured it out yet, Markos deliberately sabotaged The Daily Kos in 3.0 to make the audience smaller. 450 comments?  Who the hell has the timne to read all that?  The blog has become far too big for such a limited software platform, yet it still thrives and exponentially grows.  We shall see what happens.

I am going on far too long here, but I want people to understand something about me, blogs and Markos.  Since 2000, for some reason I added it up, I have donated approximately $10,000 to blogs and their writers.  I earn well and don't spend, so I had it.  Anyway, before blogs we had nothing as plain little people, absolutely nothing.

I still appreciate the miracle of having a thousand souls immediately read my work, I really do.  I love political blogs--for me they are the only ray of hope in averting total disaster, for it appears the country is lost already.  Sorry, it does.

I have been with Markos, and many others, since their very beginnings.  The Daily Kos is an amazing place and the best thing that's ever happened to me politcally in this lifetime.  I love Markos Zuniga.  I completely understand the thinking and motivation for the numerous statements said about him here, and in many cases I completely agree.  I'd still like others to be aware how knifingly painful reading some of these comments are.  I mean, we all have to be careful to how sensitive all humans are.  Just understand there are still souls around who cherish The Daily Kos, watching patiently.

One other thing:  I miss you.  How many times have I watched new waves and members engulf The Daily Kos, only to eventually fade and leave?  At least five times.  I vividly remember reading Soto and Billmon as regular commenters.  Huh, now here is yet another set of hotshots, gone forever from the mothership.  You gotta do what you gotta do, I understand.  It's good thing, I'm sure.  I still remember you and miss you.

I'm not much of a human, you know?  I didn't mean to talk down to anyone here, and I wish all of us peace.  None of us knows where any of this is going, all of these judgments are far too hasty, and we are all among friends.  Y'all can do what you like, God bless you for it, but you an always find me at The Daily Kos.

Al Gore won!

by paradox on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 10:46:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Interesting (4.00 / 4)
Makos a political publisher? Respectfully, what do you base that on? The front page posts by Markos are some of the worst you can find. Sure maybe in the earlier days he 'took the time' to be insightful but now he posts a headline, copy from an article, and a short paragraph of personal commentary that doesn't begin to measure up to the most mediocre of diarists. In short he has taken the Atrios route by not offering much in content. There is far better commentary elsewhere (Booman, TPM Cafe, Huffington Post, TPM, for on going in depth reporting and commentary, etc)

What Kos has now become is an totally diluted unlimited community for all comers. And his NEW model is "advertising driven".

Yes DailyKos is now a Business and not a political blog. One only has to go to Blogads to see what I am talking about. Once you look at the dollars involved you will see why Kos exercises no restrictions on who can post and what they say - no matter how offensive it is. It's all about the 'page views' which bring in higher advertising revenue.

The problem for Kos is that eventually his original "draw" - serious progressives - is going to get so diluted that advertisers will figure out that there are more productive and less expensive places to spend their as dollars and get more bang for the buck. It is an obstacle that all publications face when they try to expand their readership (page views) by diverting from their original editorial format in search of more readers.

I have nothing against business or making money but when a blog becomes something other than what originally attracted me - I'm gone.

by talex on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Interesting (none / 1)
I am one of the old folks from Kos(am not using the same screen name.) I think I was within the first 500 to register when he went to registering.  The place has changed - a lot.  There are so many diaries that one cannot even follow the diaries. I don't recognize any of the names except for the frontpagers. Once in a while I will run across a name from way back. There's way too much neener-neener-didn't do it-did too- comments. Yet I go there,must be from force of habit.  I personally am pleased that Markos is getting non political ads. It mean s Marshall/firedoglake/Americablog can make a living off this. After reading this thread I probably will reduce my visits to kos substantially. When I actually think of my time online I probably get more info going to marshall/tbogg/americablog/hullaballoo/atrios/pol animal/tapped.
 BTW whatever did happen to marisacat?
by bea wilder on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 09:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A bit of disagreement from me (4.00 / 14)
I do not believe for a moment that Kos is a progressive. He's a Democrat. He's quite open about it. And he's openly hostile to many progressive causes, including reproductive rights, environmentalism, election reform and feminism.

Daily Kos, the site, I think is more progressive. Armando, for all his bile and venom, is much more progressive.

But the site feels like a riot mob now -- a real-life, online version of the witch-burning mob in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where one person says something and everyone in the mob echoes it in outrage. It doesn't help that diaries seem to routinely get deleted, while others magically seem to get rewritten -- as if the provocative words that triggered a vigorous thread needed to be "cleaned up" for posterity. (While there's no law against it, unmarked blog revisionism goes against blogging ethics and leads to mistrust.)

It's been a good business model for Kos. The site's traffic is self-fulfilling -- people go there because that's where people go, and all the action is in the comment threads, which makes for more traffic.

I think it's great there's a place like Daily Kos. But sadly you can't have much quality discussion in what amounts to a football-stadium-sized crowd, not unless you can invest much much time in plowing through a gazillion threaded, slow-loading comments. (The site also crashes Firefox and Safari frequently. I don't know why that is.)

I think, however, that the strife there is but a reflection of the greater conflict within the so-called "left" -- between those who hold to progressive values first and foremost, and those who hold to party affiliation first and foremost. And I think that's something that needs to be hashed out, if only to learn whether progressives really and truly can count on the Democratic party for much of anything.

Seeing that kind of conflict appear here on Booman, with more petty dramas and posings, is disappointing to me, and why I find myself less interested in participating here on a frequent basis. People can get nasty and territorial, fine, but it does not appeal ... and its absence was what drew me here many moons ago.

Anyway, I wasn't going to even respond here -- the very nature of this diary seems rather petty in itself, to be honest. I'm not at a wedding, so I don't understand the "speak now or forever hold your peace" sentiment.

Daily Kos, like it or not, is the #1 political blog, and as such what happens there will always be relevant to some degree to the greater political dialog. I have no personal beef with any of the principals there, but I have opinions about the topics raised and attitudes expressed there, and will not recuse myself today from responding to a topic that is raised tomorrow.

If Booman is saying that any topic discussed on dK must not be spoken of here, that's fine with me. I have my own space to post in.

But nobody -- especially in politics -- is above criticism, and anyone who argues otherwise is either a would-be dictator or a fool. (And before the howling replies come flooding in, no, I am not accusing anybody of expressing that.)

media girl

by media girl on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I never (4.00 / 4)
wanted to make Daily Kos a taboo subject.  It's not.  But every once in a while this site gets overrun with very personal bashing of people over there and it makes me uncomfortable.  

Sometimes people forget that they are talking about real people and not some anonymous poster hiding behind a psuedonym.  If some site out there starts obsessing about me and calling me horrible things and saying I am a bad person then that is going to be upsetting to me.  It comes with the territory and I understand the risk.  

But when a friend of yours is getting blistered on your site it not a very fun thing.  It's downright awkward.  

All I ask is that people be sensitive to how I feel about these things, not that people censor themselves.  

by BooMan on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 02:19:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay maybe just to Victory (4.00 / 2)
Greensooner: "The one area in which I might disagree involves kos and the DLC.  I say "might" because you're not clear on what you think kos's objections to the DLC are"

I don't know what his objections ARE. I know what they WERE. The DLC insisted that opposing the war was a losing political strategy, that it was folly to oppose a 'popular war-time President' and that opposing the war resolution in 2002 or supporting Dean or even Clark in 2003-2004 was a one way track to 49 state electoral blowout. Well the Party by and large went along in big numbers and managed to pull out two losses in a row anyway. The second one narrowly and during which a lot of people were just waiting for a Murtha moment. Whereupon a bunch of DLC'ers insisted that the proper political course was to embrace overt (and exclusive) religiousity and rally around 'stay the course'. That just because a certain group of generally pro-military but staunchly anti-Iraq war folk were fully vindicated on the facts about minor things like WMD and the necessary force levels needed to successfully occupy Iraq (Shinseki was right, we didn't have them) doesn't mean that they had any obligation to listen to us, or even grant us credit for being right. Well in the immortal words of Kos "screw'em"

As for only 70 Dems being willing to vote for Murtha's original resolution, well the last couple have days have been a political eternity. A lot of people ducked and found that not only weren't people swinging they were actually applauding. I am not talking Profiles in Courage here, but the dialogue on the Democratic side shifted dramatically in the two days post Murtha.

Paradox "I vividly remember reading Soto and Billmon as regular commenters." Quite the irony there. Because I missed that first great way altogether. My first tentative step on the dKos stage was just after Steve and Billmon left to establish their own places. I visited, and then after the hiatus continue to visit the Whiskey Bar, but for me their only real association with dKos is their presense in the Alumni blogroll. But it highlights a point I made on some other thread on this topic: except for a handful of veterans like Paradox there was a dKos before you. I remember what was probably a fourth wave ranter who demanded to know where dKos was before the war. He clearly had no idea that the center of anti-war speech in the blogosphere was pretty much right there. I suggested he was barking up the wrong blog, and in what is an odd coincidence was immediately backed up by Meteor Blades.

(Let me post this, and then unfortunately for some I will be right back)

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Okay maybe just to Victory (none / 0)
Talex, unfortunately I have to admit that you in turn have hit this on the head. dailyKos at one time was a true blog. Pre-Scoop and for a time after Scoop he had his archives posted. A time or two I went back to the beginning. Markos would put up a post. Then a couple of hours later another post. And then he would get a comment, and maybe a comment on a comment. But in the beginning it was a blog like any other blog. And then what he had to say started resonating and with some cross fertilization from Atrios and a couple other places it started to cook. At a time when Bush was in the eighties in approval and you had few other places to go to vent your Buck Fushness this was the place to be. There were other liberal bloggers but for the most part they were getting the WMD piece tragically wrong (which for the most part they are freely admitting today). And then by stages it expanded and then exploded. And at some point during that process Markos stepped back and let it not really be about him at all. As you say it became a money making business which allowed all and sundry to post and vent.

But I have to disagree with you on this one "The problem for Kos is that eventually his original "draw" - serious progressives - is going to get so diluted that advertisers will figure out that there are more productive and less expensive places to spend their as dollars and get more bang for the buck." Advertisers did not come to dKos for "serious progressives", they came here for eyeballs and clicks. They could care less that the real action among progressives has moved elsewhere, they have product to move.

In the world of "Enders Game" you had local and regional discussion groups where skillful writers and debaters would eventually be invited up to higher level and eventually world discussion groups. The model in mind was USENET newsgroups but some of the same principles apply here. dKos has become the minor leagues, a few big players rumble around on the main page, but other than that it is hard to be heard. So people move on to places where they can be heard.

I have been a lot more active on dKos in the last three months. Which translates to 9 posts in November. In the words of Yogi Berra, "no one goes there anymore, it is too crowded".

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 02:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll concede here (none / 0)
Media Girl "I do not believe for a moment that Kos is a progressive. He's a Democrat. He's quite open about it. And he's openly hostile to many progressive causes, including reproductive rights, environmentalism, election reform and feminism."

I am not sure I agree, I haven't seen the hostility on these issues, but then again I have not been around much.

For me the key issue was always the war and the fundamental will to power that characterizes the Bush Administration. I'll agree that is not the entire Progressive agenda, but every bit of power the Administration has to roll back progress on all sides is the power he is claiming as a War Time President and it was important and remains important to challenge him on his home ground.

Kos is a Democrat, I am a Democrat. Anti-war Democrats and for the longest time the institutional Democratic Party insisted that fighting back against the war meant you were not a true Democrat at all. And so Markos welcomed all that were willing to take on the Republican war machine, and some people jumped on board dKos and helped us turn the tide around and then were shocked to find that Kos was neither a Green nor a Socialist Democrat.

I am saddened that you think that 'progressive' and 'Democrat' are somehow exclusive. I think you are going to see a counter offensive mounted next Spring that will being progressives back on board. I for one have plans but the proof is in the pudding and I don't expect any disillusioned progressives to take anything on faith. Hope to see you then.

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 02:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I too think the two are exclusive (4.00 / 7)
and I'm sad to say that a counteroffensive next spring will not likely change my opinion. It isn't just the progressives who are tired and hungry for substance, it is well over half of the country. We want real change, we want real progress, not new and improved brand image.
by debraz on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 05:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I too think the two are exclusive (none / 1)
Enjoy your time in the wilderness. If you believe that "well over half of the country" shares your views then you have the power to take over either party. Personally I believe that the FDR wing of the Democratic Party can wrest power from the DLC wing. But some people would rather bitch and moan from the sidelines and not recognize the effort it took to move Bush from 90% to 36%. Explain to me exactly how you would implement "real progress" given the real world, how you would package "real change" given the fact that the Republicans currently control both houses of Congress. We need to capture the center to elect Speaker Pelosi and yet true to the entire history of the Left you demand ideological purity.

Peoples' Judean Front vs the Judean Peoples' Front. It is not just a joke from Life of Brian it is a dead on diagnosis of the kind of splinter group manuevering that characterized the Left for most of the last century. FDR welded together southern bigots and northern machine politicians and put through the most progressive policy agenda in history. He even put Wallace on the ticket. And yet the far Left ended up turning on him.

Excuse me for living in the real world. And by the way Embrace your Inner FDR.

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 05:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yowza! (none / 0)
Excuse me for living in the real world. And by the way Embrace your Inner FDR.

Why is it that the party centrists - and I don't mean the vast center of America - I mean a subset of a subset, the Democratic Party centrists - label progress as out of touch with reality? And then you go on to claim responsibility for Bush's plummeting polls to boot?

The fact that you want real change "packaged" speaks for itself. The fact that you link real change with "ideological purity" sticks a fork in it. Progress means progress for America, the real America, not demographic subsets of subsets, or tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Progress:

  • Education: invest in the next generation instead of outsourcing education to the unaccountable "faith based" and private sector while dumping millions off the NCLB rolls
  • Energy Independence: alternative, renewable energy sources
  • Environment: responsible stewardship, real capitalism, not govt. granted corporate liability shields and taxpayer funded pollution
  • Fighting Corruption, no matter which political party
  • Financial Equality: Roll back the draconian personal bankruptcy bill and end the tax-payer subsidized "bankruptcy" for corporations, roll back the tax cuts for the richest at the expense of basic services and infrastructure
  • Fiscal Responsibility: restore pay as you go, restore  open bidding for gov't. contracts, gut pork, end the corporate liability shields and offshore tax havens
  • Foreign Policy: restore the definitions of both the words "foreign" and "policy". The word "sane" should be a given
  • National Security: let's actually have some instead of spending billions on scaring the daylights out of us and doing dick here, while spending billions more under the guise of "fighting them over there".
  • Preemptive War:  see Foreign policy and Rule of Law.
  • Rule of Law: The Bill of Rights, the Constitution, treaties are operative - under any and all circumstances.
  • Transparent Government: verifiable voting, open source, open debate, open access, close the gov-to-lobbyist revolving door.
  • Wages: enforce existing labor laws without the "help" of corporate cronies like Wal-Mart
  • Work: "Free" trade policies are killing entrepreneurial America, eroding the tax base and gutting innovation. Put the American worker on a level playing field by ending tax incentives and corporate subsidies for outsourcing American industry and jobs.
by debraz on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 10:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I'll concede here (4.00 / 5)
He banned many progressives outright. He doesn't want us on board.  We are hippies, women's studies nuts and conspiracy theorists to him.

He probably banned me out of ignorance.  I recommended a diary that pointed out that some conspiracies have turned out to be real, like the Standard Oil conspiracy that created the Sherman Antitrust Act.  He banned me as one of the conspiracy theorists.  He banned me a second time for giving a one to a front page poster, who fucking deserved a one..  I don't give a crap about him anymore and I prefer Booman.

Armando admits Kos is a conservative Dem, and not a progressive.

 Kos burnt his own bridges.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog

by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 06:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You too may be right (none / 0)
Maybe it is a whole different world over there. But in my experience people who claimed they were 'banned' by Kos personally generally were just having their comments hidden by the community for being content free.

Blogs are private property, you are a guest. If you want to express yourself freely get your own free blog. The people at Democratic Underground tap into this best with their Hate Mailbag. Wingnuts for years have come on and complained about being deleted. To which the DU says "fuck you, what part of DEMOCRATIC Underground didn't you understand" I have weeks and weeks of outraged wingnuttery to catch up on. But some people here might want to consider what distinguishes them from these wingers:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/mail/index.html

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 06:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: You too may be right (none / 0)
Well that isn't true in my case.  You can look up my record as Dameocrat and Noalterntive.  I had very few comments hidden, and they in no way contributed to my banning.  I was banned because of Kos's attack on conspiracy theorists and for giving ones to dhinmi.  

No other reasons.

I don't like the guy and I don't have to, I shouldn't be expected too either. I don't think I owe him anything.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog

by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 08:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Musta been a flame war to remember (none / 0)
It is really odd to enter this discussion out of context. I don't even know the significance of "pie". Silly me because it must have been the most importantist issue ever for a single person to spend so much time spreading "ones" about to the degree that it brought down the wrath of the Wizard of Kos.

"I sense a disturbance in the Force" "What does it mean Lord Bruceder?" "I am not sure but it smells like pie"

Social Security: Changes in trustees' projections over time

by Bruce Webb (bruce.webb2@verizon.net) on Mon Nov 28th, 2005 at 02:49:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Musta been a flame war to remember (none / 0)
Or Kos has male pms and blatantly favors frontpagers even when they troll. Needless to say, I won't recommed him.  I think Du sucks too by the way.  They eliminated war protesters left and right after Kerry was nominated that is why "The Dean Underground" was formed.  They also completely  massacred pro palestinian liberals.  Nobody goes there anymore but people who used to be war hawks. They still make a point to kick off peace protesters and marginalize them even though they were the ones who were wrong. We're not on the same page, and probably never will be.  People on this blog are more forward thinking and less scared than duers or kossacks. I won't consent to marginalization and won't recommend my fellow liberals turn a blog that marginalizes me into a successful blog.  

I just find it incredibly funny that you kossacks can't live with it if we thrive on another blog.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog

by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Mon Nov 28th, 2005 at 03:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As an adamantly pro-choice (none / 0)
feminist, I have my issues with Kos (I'm betting you can guess what those issues are).

I've tried to go cold turkey on the site (particularly after the hairy-legged womens studies major crack) but haven't been successful as of yet.

What strikes me as ironical is that Kos slams the DLC for  clinging to their narrow interpretation of "centrism" (which hasn't brought the party  notable success in over a decade) and yet he seems to be promulgating a slightly different version of the same thing. The major difference is that it is stridently against the invasion of Iraq, and that it is markedly more friendly to labor. But the pro-choice plank in the party's platform, as far as Markos is concerned, can be discarded.

Markos, like the DLC, seems to have inherited a fear of the Left (ie, I feel as if he buys into the stereotype of a leftist fringe where women don't shave their legs, or wear lipstick, and dress like a convention of librarians and/or dykes -- at least, when they're not tearing off their bras and throwing them in flaming garbage cans -- while the men have long hair, scraggly beards, and say things like "peace, dude" in an exceedingly, ah, mellow fashion.

Kos, IMO, wants to remake the public's image of a "grassroots" Democrat into the existing image of a yuppie (the same image that the DLC wants to cultivate) while simultaneously pushing the frame vaguely leftward from where the DLC has mounted it.

In some ways, I get this and can sympathize it. I, often, felt like frothing at the mouth when my extreme opposition to invading Iraq meant people automatically categorized me as anti-war (ie, a peacenik) when, while I don't think war is a "good", I do firmly believe that it is, sometimes, necessary (I was, for example, for the invasion of Afghanistan).

Given that this is the  internet, and none of you can see me, I can loudly declare that I am not absolutist in my anti-war stance, and furthermore inform you that I don't wear peace signs, or beads (and do wear a bra), and am, in fact AM a (relatively) young urban professional who wears business attire on a regular basis. But none of this is provable, and I feel as if, when I assert my pro-choice stance on DailyKos, Kos relegates me (not me personally, perhaps, but the aggregate of others like me) to hair-legged feminists who overthink things and get hysterical at the least provocation.

Which, frankly, is the exact same dynamic that was at work when all of us who opposed invading Iraq were dismissed as peaceniks, ie, we were assigned to an easily dismissible (stereotyped) category, which meant that our arguments could be just as easily dismissed.

by renska ([behrenska] [at] [gmail] [dot] [com]) on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 10:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: As an adamantly pro-choice (none / 0)
I created my messageboard for people who feel marginalized unjustly by the mainstream blogs and messageboards like DU, and Dailykos. That would include prochoice people, people who believe in two states in Israel and Palestine and actually want the Democratic party to act like it, instead of playing lip service, and people who are against the war.  I won't triangulate you out of the equation like kos, and you are free to bitch about messageboard marginalization on other boards. Invite your friends as well.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog
by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 09:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I'll concede here (none / 0)
Just a brief reply since this thread is days old....

Media Girl "I do not believe for a moment that Kos is a progressive. He's a Democrat. He's quite open about it. And he's openly hostile to many progressive causes, including reproductive rights, environmentalism, election reform and feminism."

I am not sure I agree, I haven't seen the hostility on these issues, but then again I have not been around much.

As you don't even know to what the pie references refer, I'd say your "problem" is that you indeed haven't been around much.

For me the key issue was always the war and the fundamental will to power that characterizes the Bush Administration. I'll agree that is not the entire Progressive agenda, but every bit of power the Administration has to roll back progress on all sides is the power he is claiming as a War Time President and it was important and remains important to challenge him on his home ground.

Progressivism is not defined at all by anti-war views. While I oppose the war, and how he's conducted it, I do not believe that my position on the war is particularly progressive -- just an opinion of an American very concerned about what this idiot leader is doing in the name of our country.

Kos is a Democrat, I am a Democrat.

I ceased being a Democrat in the '80s, when they started to abandon Democratic principles. I think Dukakis' rambling "I am not a liberal!" statements in the debates with Bush the Elder sealed it for me. And while I could appreciate the intelligence and fiscal accomplishments of Clinton, he was destructive to many progressive causes and values, some by bungling, many by design.

I am saddened that you think that 'progressive' and 'Democrat' are somehow exclusive.

I am saddened, too. But I blame the Democrats for thinking that we'll just vote for them because they're Democrats, instead of voting our interests. We voted Democrat because, once upon a time, they were the party that did mostly represent our interests. But since the Republicans went batshit crazy in their neo-fascist "revolution" it seems the Democrats have felt they don't need to represent progressive or liberal values any more.

I think you are going to see a counter offensive mounted next Spring that will being progressives back on board.

Not of the likes of Chuck Schumer have anything to say about it. They want to pander more to the radical right. It's all gangbanger politics, fighting for territory to them, and to hell with the values or issues.

I will never ever vote party line just to vote party line ever again. I vote for people. Often they happen to be Democrats. But with the Democratic Party pushing ever rightward, while the Republicans are starting to run scared from their wingnutty social conservative special interests, I think the question of which party ends up being more progressive is looking less and less certain these days.

media girl

by media girl on Mon Nov 28th, 2005 at 11:35:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 7)
Jesus Christ (with apologies)
I just had to go over there and ask one of our own not to troll rate the whole goddamned place in effort to get banned. This shit is gettin real old, real fast.

I have some problems with the place and maybe I make a comment about it once a month. Whatever. But I ain't overly bent about it. it's a big world out there and sometimes it ain't very friendly. Big deal. there was a (mostly) thoughtful discussion here about StarkRLR's diary at kos that happened here today. That was fine for the most part but it got out of hand as usual.

"green grass and high tides forever"

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:07:44 PM EST
snicker .... (4.00 / 8)
and metajesus made a bukakke video.

I mean, please, it's plain that some sites are aligned w/ the official party. They both deny and celebrate it. Money changing hands isn't necessary. Lots of people do things b/c they BELIEVE in it, and I'm sure lots of people believe Reid, Schumer et al actually give a fuck about the rest of us.

So what?

That's politics.

The Vichy Dems are imploding, the sites that support them are coming under increasing fire, and the sun rises in the East. Life goes on.

Plainly, our political culture needs to finish falling apart before some real change can come.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:15:41 PM EST
I still have issues with DailyKos, but... (4.00 / 11)
I still post there.

I think that I prefer to shy from some controversies and participate in others.  Like Louisiana, New Orleans and Katrina's aftermath.  And still, some people in my mind Still Don't Get It.

Frankly, I really don't have time and energy to get too upset, because I'm writing a book.  If I do focus too much on what I feel is Dissing, I have to go take another walk somewhere during the day to expel the steam...and get back on track.


An untypical Negro

by blksista (gab1954@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:17:46 PM EST
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 6)
Well, as I stated in my last comment to my own thread: I have been able to recover the deleted diary (with comments) and TU status is restored over there.

Good enough for me.

(Why bother even post over there? It's a big fucking audience, that's why; and no, that's not related to egotistic desire for attention--but let's face it people, do we write with the intention of no one listening? Do we write (on political issues) with the intent of reaching as many people as possible, not for the sake of ego, but for the sake of change?).

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the pie fight is over.

Thanks to everyone here for the support, the intelligent and reasoned discussion, etc.

Sorry I blew up (the blog).

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:25:01 PM EST
The badminton of martyrdom. (4.00 / 3)
Wanna bet that your diary (and the others like it) was the end of political immunity for Thanksgiving among frontier progressives?
by macdust on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 0)
that's why I still crosspost there ... bandwidth.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott
by Madman in the Marketplace on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 0)
I'd like to know how the diary was recovered.
Because censorship of your diary is at the center of what was going on over there tonight.

"green grass and high tides forever"
by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 1)
A certain someone left a browser window open on the diary sometime yesterday evening. It was just a matter of cut and paste from there.
by Mike Doughney on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 3)
Is there any way that you know of to find out who deleted it? Because that is bullshit. Stark's diary was hardly that threatening, or so I thought. I just read through most of it again and all I saw was Stark repeatedly and mostly patiently trying to convey her sense of the offense. The attacks that came were stunning really, as were the attempts at moderation and defense by other commenters. To no avail. I guess the ugliness of it was too embarrassing for someone with the power to delete.

"green grass and high tides forever"
by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 1)
That's something I wondered about too. Seemed highly irregular that a highly recommended diary would just go "poof". I know that Armando is in denial mode, contending that neither he nor Markos had anything to do with the deletion of Stark's diary. If Stark didn't delete it of her own volition (as I understand it, she didn't) then it would have to be someone who has access to the inner workings of DKos. I'm assuming that would include a very limited number of individuals.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.
by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 02:07:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 1)
 I did not delete the diary. I only found out it had been deleted when cruz pointed it out here.

I suppose I could write Kos directly and inquire.

It is an interesting record of mob mentality, which is why I also found some of the stuff about "cult" behavior on Mike's site interesting in this regard.

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 02:19:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 2)
I did not delete the diary. I only found out it had been deleted when cruz pointed it out here.

I figured as much. I am curious if the culprit will ever own up to it. Not to worry, I ain't exactly holding my breath.  ;-)

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 02:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 3)
Page says it wasn't her.

I just went through it for the first time in quite a while (well, quite an internet while).

Pulled DarkSyde's comments out -- hadn't seen them before. Those comments, coming from a dKos "big name" are really damning.

Check em out, then you tell me who's drunk! lol.

My theory is that it was this which they wanted removed from the record. His comments are totally, totally over the top. All of them.

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 03:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 9)
Just for the record: I agreed with the substance of Darksyde's comments, if not necessarily the tone. I am really surprised the diary was deleted - the discussion was pretty tame compared to other stuff I've seen...

The point that you were too harsh with Cindy Sheehan was one worth making. You could have passed on your message to her by e-mail or as a comment in her diary, and she being the decent person she is, she would have listened to you and amended her diary so as to avoid the unnecessary hurt it caused you by inappropriately using loaded words. You chose to blast her in a highly polemic way, and frankly, that thread was pretty predictable.

Join the European Tribune, Booman Tribune's European cousin.
In the long term, we're all dead. John Keynes

by Jerome a Paris on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 06:15:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone ..... Daily Kos (4.00 / 2)
Good morning to all of you. First thing I have to say is that the I am responsible of what happened "at the other place".I do have the need to explain myself, and will use Jerome's post because it goes to the hart of the matter. But first let me say that this has nothing to do with BT, nor Stark or anyone/thing here. This to me is personal. It is a matter of principles. Therefore I will not stop until  I am banned or all my comments are removed. I hope all of you will understand.

At the center is the matter of censorship.That is something I don't agree with and do not want to be part of. Not now, not ever.

I can understand people disagreeing with Stark. I can understand people troll rating inflamatory remaks or posts. We are all grown ups, and should be able to deal with that

But now lets change the scenario for a moment. Lets imagine that rather than comments by Native Americans on a sensitive matter we use the Jewish sensitivity about the Holocaust. lets imagine we find a diary in which a Jew is upset because we celebrate Hitlers birthday with a great feast.Would we ask for restrain and sensitivity? Or would you troll rate those whosupport/justify/accept those celebrating such an attrocious moment?

What if we found someone celebrating 9-11 in the same manner?

That is what offended me so much. Yes, things could have been said differently. And yes, Cindy is a great person and has all my respect. That said, thereis no way I can justify what happened there. Stark's diary was not "inflamatory", was pretty considerate towards Cindy.I can understand people disagreeing with Satrk. Troll rating Stark? A little to much, at least from my point of view. Deleting the diary? Way to much.

When I finally decided to totally dissapear from that place, after deliting all my diaries, I looked for a way to contact Kos. No e-mail available. Armando was there, so I asked him. And I asked nicely. Why do I want the last few comments removed? Cause I don't want any association with such a place. They delete my comments, I'm gone, everybody is happy.

Now, I'm going to be away for most of the day,since I have to re-install my Windows, and that is very time consuming, but hopefully I will finish before the day is over.

Peace  

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 10:14:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 1)
Jerome, the latest installation in this ongoing drama actually began as my response to your statement that you agree with the substance of what DarkSyde said.

Tame? You consider this shit Tame? I consider it profoundly disturbing, and here are some reasons why.

Have a nice day, I really, really do need to get back to work.

We have a saying in Indian country: "Will the real savage please sit down" (and no, that is not to be seen as any reference whatsoever to Cindy Sheehan--(and btw we also have a bumper sticker in Indian Country that reads "You are on Indian Land", but I suppose no one caught that "literary" illusion. Oh well.)

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Look (4.00 / 4)
I will stand by what I said. DarkSyde was right to criticise you and to say your diary was inappropriately aggressive and nasty.

And he said it in an inappropriately aggressive and nasty way.

As I wrote in the thread, you get from dKos what you put in it.

You put harsh, confrontational, and frankly downright nasty words directed at someone popular on the site and to whom you did not give the benefit of the doubt - not once. You could have sent her an email or put a comment in her diary - she was around responding. She was so struck by your diary that she deleted her own diary completely because she realised she had hurt you. She would have responded to a kind request. Why did you need to blast her? And why should you be surprised that you get harsh, confrontational, and frankly downright nasty words directed at you?

You get from dKos what you put in it.

Join the European Tribune, Booman Tribune's European cousin.
In the long term, we're all dead. John Keynes

by Jerome a Paris on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:23:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Look (4.00 / 2)
There is  a public record, Jerome, and the proof is in the pudding.

To cite another of my now infamously polemical published works:
Dare to compare.

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:34:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome-Thanks for (none / 1)
saying what needed to be said.

That diary was a political cheapshot at a grieving mother. One who is held in very high esteem by myself and the majority at Kos. I found it quite distasteful.

I do however believe in free speech and the diary should not have been deleted except by the author.

by momagainstthedraft on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 01:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm. (4.00 / 3)
I'm also a bit puzzled to see your diary go away like that, at the same time I'm not all that surprised. I've been waiting to see if mine stays or goes.

I would also guess that the reason, if you were able to extract one from whoever pulled the diary, would probably have something to do with having given the "other side" more fuel to support their myths of what they think "liberals" are like. That the erasure of a diary is more damning to any notion of freedom of expression than anything posted in the thread might well be lost on them.

But perhaps some point has been reached where free expression is no longer one of the more important values, if it ever was. My motivation for the response that I wrote comes from observing certain kinds of patterns in the behavior of the so-called "Christian right," namely:


  • branding and maintaining the purity of the brand
  • inviolability and supremacy of process over everything else
  • co-optation and trivialization of historical events down to politically valuable soundbites
  • the primacy of marketing, the expectation on the part of people that they will be marketed to, and people's reactions when the process of marketing is interfered with by third parties

Which is to say that you and I have stepped on something I think is rather hard to describe, and it's not just a mob mentality. It is something way down inside common expectations of how the modern world works. It is about what happens when others try to point out the impurity of a brand name (here that of "Cindy Sheehan"). It is about the bias against the nonconformity of whistleblowing, of pointing out the royal nudity, versus the acceptability of branding and corporate conformity. And as I started out with, the "flatness" of equating all traumas down to the same level for marketing purposes.

All of the above, of course, applies to a lot of what goes on over in the "Orange Empire." Whether anything can be done about it, to get to the point that you're talking about something resembling the "real world" as opposed to all this intervening nonsense remains to be seen.

by Mike Doughney on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 11:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hmm. (none / 1)
Mike, I was glad to have gone to your site as a consequence of your "dramatic rescue" (lol). I hadn't thought these things in that context before, and, since I am familiar with much of Lifton's work, found it very, how shall we say, "enlightening" to think these things in this context. So thanks again.

This business of making individuals into "brand names" and, above all, burdening them with the responsibility of coming in and "saving" this society (we saw this with Fitz as well)....man....To cite the Austrian artist George Tabori: "the old hamletian ploy of dodging action by mindfucking"--and by "dodging action" I don't mean "political" action, but rather taking a hard, honest look at the parameters of thought and the underlying paradigms that line the floor of the "big tent."

We don't need another fucking HERO. What we need is to change our collective minds.

Anyway. I seriously do need to get some work done here (can someone put a dKos/Booman filter on this machine!) LOL.

Thanks again. Unintended fallout from this fiasco has been that I've since gone to the blogs of many of those posters who attempted to bring some reason to the issue--good to know who's really on the same page, ain't it?

Lots of great stuff out there--and of course, without dKos or BooMan we would not know about any of it! However flawed the forum/s may be, I'm glad they're out there.

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 0)
Maybe this will give yu folks a clue: I was about to post a comment, and the page would not open. but the diary was still there. tried several times to go to the previous page, with no success. Then I asked Stark about it here at BT. when I went back the whole thing was gone.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)
by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 11:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 0)
When was it deleted? Do you know? And what actually prompted you to recover it?

I visited your site btw. Interesting stuff.

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:28:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 2)
I don't know any more about when it was deleted, since it came to my attention from your comment in my diary, and that's dated 9:15 pm Eastern time. (For some reason the clocks on Kos and Booman are both on Daylight time which expired some weeks ago.)

As for why I recovered it - I've always reflexively tried to save things online that are of possible future importance from being deleted. There is a lot in that thread to chew on... exactly what, perhaps still needs to be figured out. A record of it should be kept.
 

by Mike Doughney on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 11:06:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 0)
Daylight time: you have to adjust to standard manually. It's in the personal preferences somewhere.

A politician is a man who will double cross that bridge when he comes to it. -- Oscar Levant
by Mnemosyne on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 0)
as you can see, I'm still chewing!

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes
by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (none / 1)
No idea, here's the link --it was Mike Doughney who recovered it.

http://www.barf.org/temp/dk/howdareyou.html

juslilolme at Historical Footnotes

by starkravinglunaticradical (non) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:37:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 6)
I just don't get why anyone, here, there or elsewhere, gets off assuming someone's motives based on a few words on a screen. That's what always gets me angry in any of these flame wars.

I know what I'm about to say will sound terribly pollyannaish (is that a word or what!?), but I wonder why people can't own their words as their best approximation of truth at the time and be curious about why others think differently.

Is that so hard to do?

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:31:52 PM EST
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 2)
Speaking from the congressional campaign we are running in Indiana, I think it because there is so much anger in our country.  We are angry about being lied to. We are angry about the arrogance and indifference with which we are treated.  We look for things to go off on, and it is growing in what I am seeing. Some people explode at the first thing they disagree with, and once it starts pouring out, it just keeps coming.  It is growing online and in the real world.  It is also not healthy!

Barry Welsh IN-06
www.barrywelsh.org

A member of The Democratic Wing of The Democratic Party

by Barry Welsh (barry@barrywelsh.org) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 4)
I think it because there is so much anger in our country.  We are angry about being lied to. We are angry about the arrogance and indifference with which we are treated.  We look for things to go off on, and it is growing in what I am seeing. Some people explode at the first thing they disagree with, and once it starts pouring out, it just keeps coming.

FWIW, looking at the US from a distance (Australia) I think you're right. Those who are paying attention should be angry even though I also agree with you that it's unhealthy.

Re Daily Kos, I read there a lot and post occasionally. I think maybe twice in the past year or more I've actually got a response to a comment I've made.

I joined in here a couple of weeks ago and bloggers have been far friendlier. I know perhaps that's a function of size at DKos as compared to here, but nevertheless, as someone mentioned upthread, this is a more "human" blog.

There seems to be more humour here as well.

by Phoebe on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 06:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 5)
If we (Dems) are ever going to "get it", then we are going to have to embrace the diversity in political thought that is inherent in a party like ours.  We need to celebrate the differences between us, and focus on the similarities.  Sell the similarities to the independent voters in this country, and WE CAN"T LOSE. Otherwise, 06 will be a replay of 02 in my opinion.  There... I feel better already.

It is time for Democrats to remember who got us in this mess, oppose them and not each other.
by keepinon (jaukkuri@sbcglobal.net) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:34:21 PM EST
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 6)
My only beef with the prog. blogesphere is that there can be a groupthink sometimes when people aren't even aware of it (not to say that I am outside this phenomena). It's like there becomes this specific way of interpreting each new piece of news... sometimes I think taking a step back can be useful.

For example, the lessons that we have learned about Paul Hackett are generalized to any Democrat in any campaign.  This small sample size is even generalized outside of campaigns to pretty much how the Democrats should address any issue and act in general. It's not that I disagree with these sentiments, I just think sometimes it's not as simple as "fight, fight, fight."

by deano on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:46:44 PM EST
Re: Everyone Loves Daily Kos (4.00 / 6)
I'm very grateful to DKos for my introduction to the participatory blogosphere, and I'll always remember the exhilaration I felt in those early days realizing there were so many others out there who felt so similarly to me about so many things and were able to articulate those feelings so well and so often.

I was mightily moved by the enthusiasm for debate I found at DKos, even when I sometimes didn't agree with what might have been being said. It was the enthusiasm, the desire to express, the implied belief that discussing things mattered, that reinfused me with a measure of hope that maybe all is not lost in our seriously damaged society. (This is still a "maybe" in my book, but I'm not as resigned to the inevitability of darkness as I may have once been.)

For me, there's absolutely no mileage at all in bashing DKos or seeking to compare it unfavorably with other sites. My own perspectives aren't enhanced by such behavior and I don't feel I'd be any more legitimate in my own mind for doing so. I don't spend much time over there now, though I usually scan the diaries at least once a day in case there's something that really grabs my attention. I had run ins with a few notables over there during my more frequent embrace of the site, but I can only say, So what? Life is always tricky anyway, and being thin-skinned about things just isn't worth the energy.

I'll always call bullshit when I think it's happening, but I'm specific about calling bullshit in that I target the particular crap being spewed rather than including the site where it appears in my condemnation. (I don't even go after the wingnut sites in this way unless I'm making a point about their serial distortions of the truth, distortions which I can enumerate when asked. We all know the wingnut sites are full of crap anyway, so I try not to waste my energy belaboring the point.)

As for speculation about whether the orange site has a stealth, paid agenda, I would be unhappy about it if such a thing were true because I'd view it like I view so many of the betrayals we are all enduring these days. But, I don't have a lot of my current energy invested in DKos, and so I'll not speculate too much abut such a thing unless and until actual evidence of such stealth arrangements is revealed.

On with the show, I say!


Denial is our most dangerous adversary.

by sbj on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 11:57:24 PM EST
Everyone Leaves Daily Kos... (4.00 / 15)
Eh.

While we're at it, lets just open a diary and get this whole 'republican bashing' out of our systems.  We have an America to run, and its going to take all of us together to make it work.

Or we can acknowledge that in politics, there are ongoing conflicts, and sometimes people who attain some level of 'power' are going to work against our interests in favor of their own, all the while claiming some sort of 'mandate' to do so.  The more often they do so, the more important it is that we take a critical look at what they're doing.



I simply don't see the problem with criticising any group when you disagree with what they're doing.  Done is done, but doing is ongoing.

The idea that we should cut any blog, like the big orange mess, some sort of special slack makes absolutely no sense to me.  We don't cut any news outlets slack, even if we agree with them 80% of the time.  We don't cut our political parties slack even if we agree with them 80% of the time.

So why should anyone expect us to put a lousy blog off-limits for criticism, especially one that so eagerly claims the mantle of "netroots", or "progressive", or "reality" while actively working against many of the beliefs that are the foundations of those very things?



I'm all for making the frogpond a better place, but I think taking a more active role in cutting short member-on-member conflict, removing the insult ratings of 2 and 3 from the pulldown (a trivial coding change), or making members feel productive and welcome would all be far more effective in improving the frog pond than worrying about the feelings of the frontpagers over at the arrogant orange place.


The Religious Right didn't take over the Republican party with a brilliant strategy of appeasement and selecting 'electable moderates'

by Yaright on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:28:47 AM EST
When yaright (4.00 / 3)
yaright, Yaright.

Precisely right.

Couldn't say it better myself.

So I won't.

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 05:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Leaves Daily Kos... (4.00 / 9)
removing the insult ratings of 2 and 3 from the pulldown (a trivial coding change)

Please never say the words "a trivial coding change" again. As a professional (well, academic right now, but eh) programmer, they make me cringe. Nothing more complicated than "Hello World" is ever trivial.

As for the ratings, they definitely need to change. Frankly, I'm amazed that they're still around. As far as I can tell, the 1-5+0 rating scale was originally used on Kuro5hin because that's what Slashdot used, and that's what most of the people there were used to. There was no good reason for it. Taco has, if memory serves, admitted that the rating scale on Slashdot was effectively arbitrary.

A much more sensible idea would be to just be able to give 'thumbs up' (what is now a 4) or 'thumbs down' (between what is now 1 and 2) to a post. Or, for trusted users, 'rules violation' (what is now 0). Probably more meaningful to boot. Unlike kos, where there appears to be a compulsion to rate every comment, people here tend to just hand out 4s, unless someone is being very obviously trollish or stupid.

And even then, we often just don't rate them at all.

As for kos, it's an interesting study in a failed blog and political movement. Like Slashdot, the signal-to-noise ratio there has degraded to an unacceptable level, and conformity is prized above insight or rational discussion. (Though conformity in neither place is what you think - Slashdot, for example, tends much more towards pro-Microsoft conformity than pro-Free Software!) The front pagers are largely irrelevant, and most of the diarists worth reading cross-post here or have their own blogs. I have no interest in political conformity, or selling out principles in favour of misguided, ineffective pragmatism. Nothing positive will come from that place, though we may see more than a few Republican-lite Democrats elected because of their efforts.

Though I find the revisionist history of kostradamus' goals and predictions almost as amusing as the blog itself.



Kill because somebody was killed. Get killed because he killed. Do you think peace will ever come like that?
by Egarwaen on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 11:01:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Leaves Daily Kos... (4.00 / 2)
About changing the ratings: I'm a hardware/chip designer by trade, but have done quite a bit of web/db/forum/etc coding both in my job and as a hobby.  Yeah, I hesitated to write 'trivial', but I think in this case its warranted.  Ideally, I'd love a system like the one you describe.  But what I proposed really is a matter of a few minutes to a few hours, and roughly accomplishes the same thing.

How many screens allow you to enter ratings?  One, two, maybe three.  If scoop is half-way well written (a large assumption), there is just one piece of code that is reused to generate the pulldown contents (the select options) for ratings.  Find those 1-3 places, and simply remove options 2,3.  That's all.   All the existing ratings, all the processing code, all the validation code can stay the same.  But simply removing the (easy) ability to enter those insult ratings will give 90% of the benefits of a new system, at a very very low coding cost (since most likely the 'coding' is simply deleting a line or two of boilerplate code which adds the offending ratings choices to the pulldown).

As for your commentary on blogs and bloggers -- well said.



The Religious Right didn't take over the Republican party with a brilliant strategy of appeasement and selecting 'electable moderates'

by Yaright on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:47:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Leaves Daily Kos... (none / 0)

Ideally, though, you'd be wanting to change the comment rating interface entirely, to support the thumbs up/down concept. And you'd want to adapt old comment ratings to match the new scheme.

It still doesn't look too hard, but it might be time-consuming. I really don't see a practical use for ratings 2 and 3 that isn't better served by a 4, a comment, a 1, or simply not rating.



Kill because somebody was killed. Get killed because he killed. Do you think peace will ever come like that?
by Egarwaen on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 03:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The practical use of a 3 rating (none / 0)
is that it provides a buffer when you accidentally click the wrong rating, and prevents you from giving someone a 2 by accident.

I know it sounds trivial, but it does have a hidden purpose.

by CabinGirl on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 04:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Leaves Daily Kos... (4.00 / 2)
well, i'm going to install scoop tonight and see if i can figure out how the ratings work ...

my own opinion on ratings, is that they cause more trouble than they solve. you should really only need something to deal with real trolls and pricks. the 0-4 ratings deal with that, but they open a whole 'nother can of worms.

by snappy on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 06:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Everyone Leaves Daily Kos... (none / 0)
Reading Egarwaen's comment, I was thinking: Yes! That's really wise. So I gave him a 4. Then I realized he was the same asshole who troll-rated me a while back for posting a pro-religious comment. LOL.
by Arminius on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 09:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guess I missed another war (4.00 / 6)
thanks to Real Life...I never have any fun. ;)

I don't spend much time there anymore...but I'm not rushing out to get banned either. I spend much more time here and at Street Prophets. And I've been trying to take more interest in Real Life -- I have a book in my head that's trying to make its way to paper, and once the spouse is back to his  regular schedule, I plan to get on a regular writing schedule.

Truth be told, I don't have time to worry about what's going on at the Orange Empire...but I do worry that what's going on there is going to dilute the hard work of the netroots trying to rebuild the Democratic Party one progressive brick at a time. I get a bad taste in my mouth when I hear the term "electability" bandied about, remembering last year's primary races. And what good is it to elect Democrats who are going to cross the aisle and vote with the Republicans on judges that will cripple a woman's right to make a medical decision?

'Nuff said for now...


I'm gonna tell all you fascists, you may be surprised People all over this world are getting organized -- Wilco

by Cali Scribe on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:17:21 AM EST
The Orange Empire (none / 0)
Man that just gave me a bad vibe. I'm from Socal originally, and somehow unconflated your term into "Orange County" and "Inland Empire", two places I am glad that I am now very far away from :-)

What you dare to Dream, dare to Analyze
by markinsanfran (mark@RealityBasedTV.com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 01:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL! (none / 1)
Actually, "Orange Empire" is the name of a very good transit museum down in Perris CA (near Riverside); the spouse gets their "Red Cars/Yellow Cars" calendar every year -- when the pinup of the month in this household is a Pacific Electric trolley car, I know I don't have to worry about him running off with another woman. ;)

It just seems that it fits "the other place" at times, especially when Markos makes his weekly appearance on Air America's "Majority Report". The spouse is still in awe of Kos, and maybe it's justified...I've just learned that everyone's human, and that means a few warts...


I'm gonna tell all you fascists, you may be surprised People all over this world are getting organized -- Wilco

by Cali Scribe on