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NOTE: Overstock bests Amazon's prices and is "blue."

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The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created a War Without End
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Display:
I'm not jumping on anything.  I'm giving information.  He is one of the likely Democratic contenders.  So is Espy.  Why do you think I am endorsing him?
by BooMan on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 09:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen his named pushed on several affiliated blogs over the last couple of days. I take that as a sign that he is being pushed. If you're not at all interested in endorsing him, that is great, but he's getting plenty of free press lately as some kind of face for the Dems in the South. Don't help him ... he's part of the cabal that would help impress theocracy into our party and government.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott
by Madman in the Marketplace on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 09:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
he's only in the news because his is an effective spokesman for his state in a time of crisis.

Armando saw him on TV and got a boner.  People read way too much into things.

by BooMan on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 09:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who's the alternative in that district, because obviously this guy is no progressive. I have a feeling its a no win situation.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by Salunga on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:02:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but a whole state.  In Mississippi the Democrats are weak but not helpless.  

From the same article cited above:

The Democratic roster of potential open-seat candidates includes Mike Moore, the former state attorney general best known for his lead role in the tobacco wars; former governor Ray Mabus; Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood; and Rep. Gene Taylor, who represents Lott's old district on the Gulf Coast. African American prospects include Mike Espy, the former Mississippi congressman and Clinton agriculture secretary, and James Graves, a justice on the Mississippi Supreme Court.
by BooMan on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
from same article:

Mississippians prefer Republicans in statewide races, and at the moment, the heavy favorite to succeed Lott is Rep. Charles W. "Chip" Pickering Jr., a five-term GOP House member.

Remember Judge Pickering, Chip's dad?  You know, the one who tried to get the cross-burner's sentence reduced?  The one that Dumbya gave a recess appointment?  Well, they don't call Chip "Chip" for nothing.

Hey, I don't like most of Gene Taylor's positions, either, but given the likely alternative -Chip Pickering -  Taylor is a flaming liberal.  Taylor is the most conservative Dem in the House, but he's still  more liberal than the most liberal Republican in the House.  And his strategy of being the most conservative Dem is, quite likely, the ONLY WINNING STRATEGY FOR A DEM in his House district OR in Lott's Senate seat.  

I would personally rather elect someone who is MUCH more liberal than Taylor, but Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton types don't poll very well down here.  So I guess we might have to settle for at least a slight move to the left by replacing Lott with Taylor.

So, somebody go ahead and tell me that because I am a realist and I know my own state very well, that I am selling out, but IT IS MISSISSIPPI AND IT AINT GONNA CHANGE ENOUGH BETWEEN NOW AND THEN TO ELECT A PRO-CHOICE CANDIDATE.  I'm tellin ya, it just won't happen down here.

Now, that will not prevent me from supporting one of the more liberal candidates in the primary (James Graves is good, if he runs, and so is Mike Espy), and I will do my best to get someone else to represent the Dems in this race if Lott retires.  However, I would gladly vote for Taylor over Pickering, it's not even close.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead

by blueneck on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
by blueneck on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:50:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
my answer is here, under Crooner's comment.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott
by Madman in the Marketplace on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:30:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
quite a bit with a friend of mine who lived the last few years in Alabama.  He would pretty much agree with you.  Democrats are behind the eight ball down there on a lot of issues.  However, maybe Katrina will change the priorities for a lot of people.  Who knows?
by BooMan on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:58:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you are right.  It is possible that the Category 4 shock to the people on the coast will help move them to see things differently.  I recently read some stuff about the federal response to Category 5 hurricane Camille in '69, and anyone who is old enough to remember those times on the coast will definitely see a huge difference.  The efficiency of that recovery has not been duplicated, to say the least, for Katrina.  Not even close...

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
by blueneck on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 02:01:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to agree with you Booman.  It is their time and they have been waiting very patiently for this time to roll around.  Some Democrats down here resemble Republicans and that has to do with the culture of the South.  I don't understand it, but I'm observing it.

PMS Purchase More Shoes
by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 10:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so armando can still get it up?

impressive

Our Word
Binti Pamoja nobody takes care of them, they take care of each other

by bayprairie (bayprairie<et>gmail <dot>com) on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:51:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More likely Armando was told by the powers that be... ie Lieberman via Ried and Al From via Rosenberg to start talking this fool up in the blogosphere.

Isn't this why Simon Rosenberg is pumping 200,000 million dollars into his Vast issue-less center right coalition.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 01:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that is NOT WHAT IS GOING ON.  That is precisely the paranoia I'm talking about.  Armando watching him on TV and was impressed about how he performed and thought he was a great spokesperson.  And he did do very well on TV that day.  

It had nothing to do with his voting record.

There is no secret plan to make Taylor the new face of the party.  Armando is not part of a secret cabal, and he in not taking marching orders from the NDN, DLC, or anyone else.

I'm getting tired of this.  

The first thing you should realize is that Armando writes whatever he wants, not what Kos tells him to write.  And the second is that Armando tends to defend Kos even when he doesn't necessarily agree with him.  

by BooMan on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 01:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For heavens sakes, I have listened in on conference calls... I am not stupid.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 03:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're not stupid, just wrong.

I converse with Armando all the time.  It's something that seems to confuse people because we fight constantly on dKos.

We enjoy battling wits and opinions, and we make up as passionately as we scrap.  We both know how to say "I'm sorry", and "You were right, I was wrong".

I think I know a little more about Armando's behind the scenes thinking than you do.  I've been a lot of conference calls and I've never, ever, for a moment gotten even a hint of direction from the DLC, or any notion whatsoever that I should fashion my message to conform with anything, let alone the DLC.

Kos is upfront about putting winning ahead of pro-choice, pro-gay rights.  He has explained why he thinks majorities are more important than individual seats.  There is nothing hidden or secretive about his views.  Armando agrees to a point, but I would say that his view is more ambivalent and nuanced.  But don't expect him to slam Kos too often, because it is unlikely to happen.  

Armando writes what he wants, and his reticence to critique Kos is purely his own personal choice.  

by BooMan on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 03:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't require some kind of conspiracy. It works in much the same way the RWNM works:

  • a group of people share similar beliefs.

  • a group of people share similar goals.

  • a group of people have had several conversations, formed a general understanding of shared values, priorities.

  • afterwords, events and actions and statements become more and more cohesive, as the successive actions of the given group reinforce each other.

It is plain from what's been written, from the house parties and conference calls, that there is a drive to marginalize women's concerns and issues in favor of the bullshit tactic to move right. It's not even necessary to send actual faxes: all you have to do is have the Vichy leaders like Schumer put someone forward as a spokesman, and the people w/ those shared values will get the idea.

This is how it works. The mere fact that Taylor was put forth so eagerly in so many places is a sign of the short shrift being given women's CIVIL RIGHTS on some important communties on the 'net.

Take a step back and take a look at how this all plays from our perspective. It has the appearance of collusion, and like a conflict of interest, the appearance is for all intents and purposes the same as actual overt collusion.

This move to put forward DfA trojan horses will further damage the party & the country, and will solidify the Religious Right's stranglehold on the political debate.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 04:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
either it is a conspiracy or it is something else.

A confluence of interests?  Perhaps.

Chuck Schumer is as pro-choice as it gets.  In his role of recruiter, he put winning ahead of women's rights.  Is he a member of the DLC now?  Please.

He has his own strategy which you vehemently disagree with.  But it's ridiculous to label anyone who agrees with him as a DLC member and it is equally ridiculous to equate the NDN on a one-to-one basis with the DLC.

I stand somewhere between you and Kos.  I can see the merits of running some anti-abortion candidates in some races, when there are other compelling reasons to do so.  In my opinion, the situation in Pennsylvania and Rhode Island are not compelling enough.

In Nebraska, running Nelson was probably the only way we had a chance to win that seat that year.  I support having done that.  But it wasn't because Nelson was pro-life, it was because he was already popular and well known.  I don't think there was an alternative with a chance.

In Pennsylvania, there were candidates (and perhaps still is) that could have won besides Casey.  In Rhode Island, there are candidates that can win and might do so.  

So, I don't subscribe to Kos's view that we should put winning before everything else, but I also don't subscribe to your view that running Nelson is equivalent to running Mengel.

by BooMan on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 04:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this is a question of whether this party stands for basic human rights. Either women are full and equal autonomous and free citizens, or they aren't. There is no "halfway" on freedom. Being a "little free" is like being a "little preganant". This goes for gay rights, and our party's pathetic response to Abu Grabe.

The party is acting in collusion with repressive policies by the majority party.

All I can ask is this: would it be okay for a southern Representative to be put forth as a candidate in a southern state if he/she was in favor of poll taxes or literacy tests? After all, it IS the south. Just who's freedom is worth abandoning in the name of winning? Who's repressive beliefs are worthy of acceptance, and who's aren't?

Schumer cares only about winning. He stands for nothing anymore. That may not have always been true, but seems to be now. He's like a football coach who encourages his linebackers to clothesline the receivers in the interest of winning.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 05:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see it that way.  

First of all, I don't believe any politicians when they state their position on abortion anyway.  It's all bullshit.  Al Gore was pro-life was it suited his constituency and pro-choice when it did not.  Same with Poppy Bush, same with Gephardt, same with Kucinich, same with countless others that state whatever position will cause them the least pain.

Standing for something?  Maybe Brownback stands for something, the most of the rest of them are just mouthing words.

You can put a pox on all their houses are you simply stop taking them seriously.  What I do take seriously is when politicians run anti-abortion in pro-choice states and vice-versa.  

Do you think for a moment that Pataki and Guiliani would be running pro-choice if they were running in Mississippi?  Do you think Nelson would run anti-choice if he were running for Congress in San Francisco?  I don't.

If you want to protect women's rights you need to change the dynamics in a lot of anti-choice districts.  You need to make the election about something much more relevent to ordinary people's lives than overturning Roe and passing annoying parental notification laws.

The reason I am not an absolutist on pro-choice candidates is because most races will have little to no effect on the issue.  Certainly the House of Representatives has no say in whether Roe is upheld or not, although they chip around the edges.  Most of them are going to vote pro or con based on their district regardless of party.  

And I don't believe them anyway.  They say what they think they need to say.

We are so far from being able to break that logic that I am not willing to make it an absolute litmus test for Democratic candidates.

You can use the rhetoric of poll taxes all day long and it will have no effect on me.  Go ahead and take the moral high ground.  

I think we need to find candidates that are willing to stand up for women's rights in disticts were it is difficult to do so, by crafting an effective populist message to oversome the obstacle.  But I'm not willing to oppose everyone who fails to do so, if it means we don't win with the candidates we have.  

It's a long range project.  We can recruit new candidates and the same time we work with some of the suck-ass candidates we are stuck with.  

And if you are going to call me someone kind of sell out, you've got to realize one thing...

I'm sticking up for progressives against this centrist crap.  I'm trying to figure out a way forward.  But I'm not an absolutist like you.  You are alienating your allies with you hot rhetoric.

by BooMan on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 05:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
by blueneck on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
geez, I wish there were some way to move a comment to the right place....

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
by blueneck on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hey its ok dude. what counts is you're being read. dont worry about the rest, its just housekeeping, k?

Our Word
Binti Pamoja nobody takes care of them, they take care of each other
by bayprairie (bayprairie<et>gmail <dot>com) on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you should see my filing system here in the office!  "downthread" might mean "in that other stack over there, about a foot down from the top"....  :)


Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
by blueneck on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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